Air Filters

Steven

Member
There are many arguments concerning the different air filter types, mostly about people comparing K&N filters to paper filters. In most cases, paper filters filter better and K&N filters allow more air through. I have more questions that really don't seem to be answered by anyone responding to this issue...

Every air filter passes a certain amount of debris and it would be fair to say that the better they filter the less air flow they provide, and vice versa. The particulates that "do" go into the engine end up getting swirled around, burnt, and then pushed out of the engine. I assume that a small fraction of those particles actually touch engine parts which are what might cause damage. (Assume smaller particles since all filters do a pretty good job at removing larger ones)


Under normal use, let's not assume desert environments or such, how damaging is this to the engine, or to put it another way, how well does the filter have to work to keep your engine safe? Is it possible that with a filter such as a K&N which doesn't filter as well as a good paper filter provides enough protection to last the life of the vehicle? Are we being overly analytical about this whole thing considering that most particles pass through the engine (I assume for this argument) without actually touching anything?


It also seems that every engine produces a certain amount of carbon which can be seen coating the inside of our exhaust pipes, so in essence, the motor is creating its own particulates from the fuel. What is the ratio of engine produced carbon to the amount of particulate matter taken in through the filter and are those particulates more or less damaging?


Of course the better we filter the better protection we have, but where do we draw the line as to how much filtration we really need in relation to the lifespan of the vehicle.


Thoughts?
 

ofdave

Member
These comments are directed towards K & N motorcycle filters.
There have been several arguments about the K & N filters. Some say the oiling makes it work better. I have no basis in fact for my opinion that they do not work better.
Horsepower gains are claimed also. I doubt that too.
I would never use one on a bike that spends a lot of time in sandy/dusty conditions.
They require cleaning and oiling. Given the effort involved in getting to our air filters, I would never use one for that reason alone.
That is a common complaint and then there are those who put one on and never service it as suggested.
Here's an article that tests automobile air filters. Not directly relevant but a good read and posted for education on the filtering process.
http://www.nicoclub.com/archives/kn-vs-oem-filter.html
I'll stick with OEM on my CTX.
 
Last edited:

randy1149

New member
I agree (a LOT) with ofdaves opinion on K&N filters. IMHO they are just an expensive hipe and need a lot of maintenance that you don't need on a bike that the filter is a major job to maintain. Stay with the OEM.
 

Steven

Member
One of the reasons I ask is that I've been using K&N in my last two cars for over 30 years and have never had a problem. When I changed the filter on the bike it was still very usable after 8k miles. There was very little on the filter. Of course, I don't live in a dusty area.
 

ofdave

Member
like Steven, I changed my filter at 8 or 9k also.
It really didn't need changing but since I had the new one, I installed it.
Will be going in again at 16thou and will look at it but my guess is that it won't need changing.
 

randy1149

New member
I don't think there is something wrong with a K&N filter. But I don't think it does anything better than an OEM filter or creates any problems. My "problem" is the extra maintenance they bring.

Technically the dirty an air filter gets the better it filters. On all my cars and motorcycles I changed the air filters at 25K miles. This is for normal road use, not dirt bikes or running in heavy dusty terrain. All my cars and my current owners manual (Hyundai Genesis) recommends replacing the air filter @ 30K miles. Considering the comparison of square area and the amount of the air filtered in the life of the filter replacing a motorcycle air filter at 8-16K miles seems a big overkill and a waste of money and labor. Contributing the fact I can change the cars air filter in less than 15 minutes and my CTX700D takes around 2-4 hours, there better be a reason to replace it prematurely. Every motorcycle air filter I've removed at 25K miles could have gone much further and with some reverse air compressor could get 10K more miles on it. But because of the labor intensity I replaced them.

At the end of the day me thinks a lot of Honda's maintenance recommendations are gifts (including air filters) to the dealers to trump up business... that's a trump with a small t.
 

MJC

Super Moderator
I thought that the OEM air filter just had to be replaced when dirty and the K and N air filter could be cleaned with oil or something. When I had my Nomad it had two 9" air filters hanging off the engine sides. To replace them with OEM costs about the same has the K and N, so I went with the K and N and just cleaned and oiled them. Was just cheaper in the long run. With my CTX700, I checked the air filter at 8K and it looked OK, used the air gun and got it better and put it back in. Where the air filter is there is not much water or dirt going to get to it so it should last a lot longer then when they are open and on the side of the engine.

Maybe I will get a stock replacement air filter and just keep it on the side just in case, but the one that is in there now I do not plan on checking again til 16K or more.

I agree with Randy on Honda's maintenance recommendations, total gifts to the dealers. Best thing to do is buy the parts on sale or by a few of each with a discount, them do the maintenance yourself, if you can.
 

ofdave

Member
I think Honda is not alone in setting low maintenance requirements. Honda (and many other) bikes have become appliance-like in their ability to run and run without any problems. That may be a reason we have one.
I find it interesting that we as riders take the time to maintain our bikes, generally speaking, to a high standard.
Do we do the same with our cars/trucks?
When is the last time you changed the brake fluid in your car? Or changed the coolant? or transmission fluid? Most do not follow the manual on 4 wheels but they do for 2. I wonder why. (I do but then I am anal about vehicle maintenance)
But conversely, I cannot accept oil changes less frequently than 3000 mi. I am up to 5000 with synthetic now but it causes me angst after umpteen years of the 3000 mile oil change in cars. Old habits die hard.
Then there are the CYA elements of procedures/uses that manufactures put in place. These likely come from the legal department.
A good example is the weight limit on our "glove box"-1.1 lbs. Really?
A garage door opener, leatherman tool, box of Altoids, house keys, small flashlight and Whoops-you're over the limit. What's that all about? It sure isn't big enough to cram full of tools or a thermos. So why the concern from Honda?
Luggage is another area-all bags have a weight limit that is easily exceeded and it is the norm to do that. But placing a limit lets the manufacturer say "we told you so" when they are absurdly overloaded and cause a problem.
Interesting to ponder these points.
 

Steven

Member
19 years later I still have the original spark plugs in my car. My brakes lasted about 16 years and the exhaust is still original. I've changed the timing belt once, but have never adjusted the valves. I've always used synthetic oil so I've most often exceeded the recommended oil change interval which has served me well for over 30 years. Since the mid 80's I've never changed oil at 3,000 miles. the minimum was 7,000 miles. However, since I don't drive my car much I've been thinking about going back to conventional oil and changing it more often, otherwise, with synthetic, it would be about every 7 years between oil changes, give or take. So yea, you're right!
 

MJC

Super Moderator
randy1149, On a side note, I see you own a Hyundai Genesis. In 2013 I was selling Hyundai's and at that time Hyundai was going to start the Genesis has a stand alone brand. We where waiting to see this new 40K plus car, and I was thinking why would anyone buy a Hyundi for that kind of money. I had never seen or bin in one yet. Someone traded in a 2010 (I think) Hyundai Genesis, and ordered a new one from me, never even siting in it yet, paid I think $42K. When the new car came, it was great one of the best cars ever. I could not take it for a long ride but did my 2 mile check to make sure everything was in order and delivered it to the new owners. I took their trade in and drive that car has my dealer ride, I was so happy with that car (even used) I did not care that all the other sales people had new Hyundai's and I was the only one driving a used dealer car. I would have brought that car it was that nice. I sold that used Genesis for $25K and lost my ride but what a car! After that getting a new Hyundai (not Genesis) has a dealer driver was disappointing. A few months later I left that dealership and when asked why, by another salesman my manager said (before
I could say anything) because he got his Hyundai Genesis taken away. In part he was right.
Hope you are enjoying your Genesis.

Sorry about the hi-jack, back to Air Filters! On that note, just make sure you have a clean one and you should be fine whatever brand it is.....
 
19 years later I still have the original spark plugs in my car.

If you do go to change the plugs don't be surprised if some of them strip the threads out of the head. I've seen reports of that happening, it could be from the aluminum/steel corroding or a build up of carbon on the end of the plug (especially if any of the thread is exposed that gets packed with carbon).
 

Steven

Member
I don't think I'm going to live that long, heh heh. Errr... I'm not sure why I'm laughing about that!!!
 

randy1149

New member
randy1149, On a side note, I see you own a Hyundai Genesis. In 2013 I was selling Hyundai's and at that time Hyundai was going to start the Genesis has a stand alone brand. We where waiting to see this new 40K plus car, and I was thinking why would anyone buy a Hyundi for that kind of money. I had never seen or bin in one yet. Someone traded in a 2010 (I think) Hyundai Genesis, and ordered a new one from me, never even siting in it yet, paid I think $42K. When the new car came, it was great one of the best cars ever. I could not take it for a long ride but did my 2 mile check to make sure everything was in order and delivered it to the new owners. I took their trade in and drive that car has my dealer ride, I was so happy with that car (even used) I did not care that all the other sales people had new Hyundai's and I was the only one driving a used dealer car. I would have brought that car it was that nice. I sold that used Genesis for $25K and lost my ride but what a car! After that getting a new Hyundai (not Genesis) has a dealer driver was disappointing. A few months later I left that dealership and when asked why, by another salesman my manager said (before
I could say anything) because he got his Hyundai Genesis taken away. In part he was right.
Hope you are enjoying your Genesis.

Sorry about the hi-jack, back to Air Filters! On that note, just make sure you have a clean one and you should be fine whatever brand it is.....

mjc,

As far as the "upscale market" I've have had BMWs, Lexus and Acura. The BMWs' where the worst cars I've owned - ALL OF THEM. Me and the service manager knew each other on first name basis. The Acrua had factory engineered "rear wheel routine maintenance" brakes which wore out with less than 20K miles, and before the fronts. It was Hondas way of making early maintenance in response to dealers complaining of low maintenance service from customers. Then when I turned it in (on a lease) Honda billed me $400 for excess wear and tear. They returned the check when I wrote a letter to them and the FTC. Lexus had been the only trouble free. But it just wasn't a fun car to drive, very bland, I didn't want anther one.

Yes Genesis is now a stand alone division of Hyundai. My current 2015 Genesis is the 4th one I owned, all because of quality, fit finish, tons of accessories, best 333 HP V6 I've ever owned and it's an overall great bang for the buck.. the car will even steer itself on the highway. The car is $20K less than a BMW5 series or Mercedes E series... cars in it's class.

They are still far away from the other upscalers when it comes to their service departments "customer expectations". Their still in the Hyundai Sonata mode. Of course it doesn't have the prestige of the others if prestige is what your looking for. People just won't put a car in the driveway with an H on it.
 

MJC

Super Moderator
mjc,

As far as the "upscale market" I've have had BMWs, Lexus and Acura. The BMWs' where the worst cars I've owned - ALL OF THEM. Me and the service manager knew each other on first name basis. The Acrua had factory engineered "rear wheel routine maintenance" brakes which wore out with less than 20K miles, and before the fronts. It was Hondas way of making early maintenance in response to dealers complaining of low maintenance service from customers. Then when I turned it in (on a lease) Honda billed me $400 for excess wear and tear. They returned the check when I wrote a letter to them and the FTC. Lexus had been the only trouble free. But it just wasn't a fun car to drive, very bland, I didn't want anther one.

Yes Genesis is now a stand alone division of Hyundai. My current 2015 Genesis is the 4th one I owned, all because of quality, fit finish, tons of accessories, best 333 HP V6 I've ever owned and it's an overall great bang for the buck.. the car will even steer itself on the highway. The car is $20K less than a BMW5 series or Mercedes E series... cars in it's class.

They are still far away from the other upscalers when it comes to their service departments "customer expectations". Their still in the Hyundai Sonata mode. Of course it doesn't have the prestige of the others if prestige is what your looking for. People just won't put a car in the driveway with an H on it.

Happy your happy with your Genesis. I had a Lexus and I have to say they have the best service of anyone. The car, well like you said "bland" but very comfy, like a sofa. After that we got a Subaru Outback, not for the driver more for the wife and 3 kids, and dog. I then moved on the full size vans, for work and driving back and forth to NYC, and Westchester they rode nice. Then pick up trucks, more like 4X4's upscale SUV's then truck. Now we have a Hyundai SUV and a (my) Mazda cx-5 both are every much alike in ride, price and bang for buck, and both have been of good quality but we hardly use them.

I would like so much to sell one and get a convertible Mustang, or something with a rug top. I told my wife I would only give up riding when the time comes if I had a convertible. But she knows I would never give up riding and would end up with the convertible and the Bike!

Well enjoy your ride. IF you come up this way on your bike my club has a lot of rides planed so feel free to come ride with us. Or if you want to just ride with me, I am home everyday if I am not visiting my Dad in Dobbs Ferry at St Cabrini Nursing Home, once a week.
 

randy1149

New member
Mike, thanks for the ride invitation and I certainly take you up on it when the temperature gets a little bit higher.
 
Top