It Happened...

Well it happened. I was riding on a Poker Run, started with full gas tank. Started the ride and after about 85 miles the gas bars where down to just 3. We stopped at the gas place. I was thinking why just 3 bars at 85 miles. Shut down, like I always do. Put in N, turn key off, side stand down. I pulled out the key fast to unlock the full cap, got gas. 1.3 gals, so about 65 miles per gal, not bad but for some reason I could go 100 miles before the bars are at just 3.

Then I went to start the bike it happened! Turned the key, hit the starter, bike go right on like always. Look at the dash, NO N, just small D and the number 2 flashing. I still had the side stand down, Yes. I put the side stand up, hit the buttons, same 2 flashing, small D, I hit it into S, hit N nothing, still S. Went back to D. Drive 50 feet, stopped, same. I assumed I was in 2nd and in Drive, could not change that. Manual, N, nothing I did changed anything. I drive 75 feet up to 40 MPH, still the bike stayed in 2nd. So I said Fuck It and shut her down. with the key, kick stand up. waited 5 sec, then hit the starter button! Bike goes right on, in N, like it should, everything back to the way it always is. Rode the next 100 miles used 2 bars of gas, stopped for the Poker Run Party. Hung out a few hours. Started fine and rode home. To get home it was about 18 more miles and the tank is at 3 bars left.

So I do not know if this has anything to do with the gas tank and the bars. Just know when I rode 100 to 120 miles I get 2 bars gone and 3 left. This was the only time I was at 3 bars at only 85 miles. And the only time it happened (Not in N at start).

I have heard of this happening to others (not the bars) and I am every careful to shut down and start my bike the right way. So why did this happen? Who knows? But it seems like this does happen to everyone at some point. Most report it never happens again. I will have to see, I will have to ride more...lol.

I will be reporting this to Honda on Monday. If it happens again I will ask Honda to look at it. For now just reporting it and see what happens, hopefully nothing....................just more fun of riding.

Like you said, no one that I've heard from ever reported it happening again.

My fuel gauge goes to 1 bar at 40 miles and 2 bars around 80. That's "normal" for my gauge.

I've had "anomalies" with my DCT shifting but nothing hard. Last week the bike would not manually shift down from 6 to 5 no matter how much I pushed the - buttons, both in manual and D automatic mode. I had to stop and turn the key off and back on.

These ECU computers do not have much recovery (if any) should they get locked up for a corrupted instruction or data. They just lock up and they need to be rebooted. Some give you a "limp mode" to get you home. All you need is one bit in an instruction to go bad or go corrupted and your dead in the water. As long as the problem does no reoccur there's nothing to worry about. It's basically the same thing our home computer locks up every now and then. The big dogs like the phone companies have 2 processors one active, one standby each with work timers with 4 or 5 recovery processes to prevent a lockup like our "cheapo" does. There is no reason why we can't have the 2 processors with recovery procedures... except for money.

I called Honda USA today and told them what happened. 1st thing they said was "this is the 1st we are hearing about something like this" next was "you must have shut down the bike by using the kick stand, not giving the bike time to go into N". To which I said No, I shut off the bike the same way all the time, knowing that others have had this happen to them. I also said if this is the 1st time you are hearing about this, why is it that you said that I must have shut the bike off using the kick stand? Then I said is there a problem with putting the kick stand down before shunting the bike using the key? So this is not the 1st time you are hearing about this?

Next I was put on hold for 20 minutes, and this guy gets on and tells me that he is the North East Rep and can help me with whatever problem I am having to just give him the Vin number of the bike. I told him to call me back in 20 minutes so I could get the info. He said he would. So I went out to the garage and got the info, but did not really think he was going to call me back.

The call back. He did indeed call me back. I give him the Vin number and he told me there was no open recalls on my bike, who the 1st owner was, what work was done to the bike at the dealerships when I switched the extended warranty over to my name, and the day I had my last NY state inspection. He then asked if I had any work/repairs or mods done to my bike and the dates and places I had the work done. He even asked about the tires I replaced and if I also replaced the air valves. So after all this I asked why he wanted to know and if he was going to somehow try to cancel my warranty. That I did not like where this was going. He said, No, that Honda is keeping records on the CTX700 DCT owners and their bikes. That this info is used for new models and to improve the ctx700. I said OK but what about my "Happening" ?

He changed his story or at least the 1st guys story. He said Honda has had reports of this happening to about 20 people and in some cases the bikes where towed to the dealerships, where the bike had not show any thing like this, it was like it re-set itself, but they tested and just re-set it again to make sure everything was OK. But that no one has reported it happening again. He said Honda is looking for a CTX 700 owner who has had this happen 2 times, this way they can find out why this happens, up to now that has not happened and until they can get a bike where they can make it happen they can not fix it. They have been working on Factory ctx 700 DCT's to make this happen and so far it has not. It is not that they do not believe the reports but they need it to happen under there watch. He also said that I was welcome to bring the bike in to any Honda dealership and they would check over the bike for free. I said not at this time and that my bike seemed fine now. I also said that if it happened again then I would do nothing to it, leave it alone and have it towed to the Dealership, on Honda's dime. He agreed to pay for the tow and for me to tell the dealership to call him. That he may want to buy back my bike if the dealership thought they could find the "why" this happens.

The deal. I did not agree to Honda buying back my bike and told this guy that my bike is worth more to me then trade in valve. He said, we will work something out. That something, he did not go into details.

The bottom line. If what the North East rep said is true, and the fact that no one has had this happen two times, which I believe, then I am happy. I am happy that the "happening" is done for me and that I can go riding like before. No worries just riding. I only got my CTX 700 DCT because it was the only bike I could ride in my condition, and I never even thought Honda cared if I owned there bike or not, now I feel like they do and they are going to make not only the CTX700 better but maybe more models with the DCT. And that makes me a happy guy.

Randy, I copied your post and emailed it to the Honda rep, just for fun, lets see if he emails back.....

Since the problem seems to happen at shut off the obvious solution is to leave the bike running all the time. I'm surprised that wasn't suggested.

These ECU (computers) are "mapped". Essentially it tells the ECU what to do for all the possible situations from all the sensors and the throttle position from the rider. Now should there be one bad instruction in one or the mapping codes the ECU doesn't know what to do and locks up. They only way Honda can find it is getting one that was not reset or rebooted. That's why they want the bike. This way they can determine if the problem is bad mapping or just a code corrupted by an external anomaly.

In today's electronics diagnostics ruled. There's no more going in with volts meters and trouble shoot the problem. The ECUs do have diagnostics and displays error codes should the ECU find a problem... mostly of external sensors. You can find them all in Section 12 of the Service Manual.

This issue of using the kick stand to turn off the engine may be something Honda knows about but keeping it quite. Perhaps the engine must be running to put the tranny in neutral and that doesn't happen using the kick stand... which could be a mapping issue also.

At the end of the day Honda wants to know if they have bad code in their ECU or just from an external source.

Keep us posted and let us know what Honda response with.

Randy, thank you for explaining this in words that I could understand. We did talk about using the Kick stand to turn off the bike, and he said they where working on something (I did not understand what he was talking about) where when used it would shut off the engine and still have time for the bike to go into "N". We used something like this at work called a Shunt Breaker where the power would shut down (in my case, on a elevator) but still let the car go to the 1st floor and open the door.

I do not know if it can be done but I would think if the ECU had more memory to record what was going on for the past 5 hours that would help to find out what is going on and help fix any problems. I know my car has something like that, if you plug it into a PC, it will tell you all kinds of info about what was going on, like your speed, if you used a turn single, braking, engine rpm's etc.

I did ask, if the bike is learning from the user how to swift gears and at what speed (like it is said too) then maybe this is why it only happens once, that the bike learned from that one time and stops itself from doing it again. He said, the CTX's computer does not learn, it only knows how to put together the info it gets faster from use. The ECU gets all the info, then does what it thinks will happen next, kinda like having a list of how to do something a 1000 ways, if you use only 4 or 5 ways the most, then the bike will pick and try from the list you use most, by using the bike some say it is learning but it is only taking the info and using that to go to the next step, and if it has done something before it will try that 1st before something else, and that is why riders think the bike is learning. The bike can not add to the list of what comes next or fix itself, it does not learn new info, only how to use the info faster and in what order. I thought that was interesting. But did not understand much of it then, I do understand it now after your (Randy) post.

So thanks again, I will post a update when and if Honda gets back to me. Til then lets just enjoy riding...

What being referred to as "learning" is just probably the processors cache memory that puts frequently used data in it's memory for faster retention than from it's data memory. That's nothing new, all our home PC's do the same thing. You can call it learning but it's not.

What I learned (from your post) there is a problem with using the kick stand to shut down the bike. I would think if you put the bike in neutral first then there should not be a problem. Since the sidestand switch goes directly to the ECU there shouldn't be a problem reprogramming the ECU not to turn the engine off until the bike is in neutral. I betcha Honda already has the fix, but recalling all the ECU is expensive especially if they use brand new ECUs. So it's now a money problem. Honda's laying low to see how this thing will play out. Thanks again for your posting this... good stuff.

Well he used the words, processors cache memory data memory, like you just did so I guess that is what he was talking about.

From what I have read and heard there is a problem with using the kick stand to shut down the bike. I have never done that. I put the bike in neutral first then use the key to shut it down. And far has I know there should have not be a problem, til it "happens" and then there is no reason to why, only that it does not happen a 2nd time.

I was hoping that it would not happen to me because I follow the right way to start and shut down the bike. But it did. I will be riding as soon as the heat and rain pass to see if there is any deference in how the bike runs....So far nothing, maybe even better then before.....I think in the back of my head I was thinking if it did "happen" would I be able to restart my bike, know that I know I can, it is no big deal, even better that I no longer have to worry about the unknown. life is good..if I am riding.

I do hope that Honda can fix it and go on the make more DCT models. I sure would like to see a Honda 1100 Shadow type bike with DCT.

Well if it happened once it can happen again. Page 35 on my owners manual specifically says to put the tranny in N before shutting off the bike. So Honda knows about the issue.

randy1149 said:

Well if it happened once it can happen again. Page 35 on my owners manual specifically says to put the tranny in N before shutting off the bike. So Honda knows about the issue.

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I agree. Someone, somewhere, probably on the FB page, wrote that they have PTS over this issue, LOL. When I go on over night trips, I always start thinking about this issue and what steps I will take if far from home when, and if, it happens to me. I bought the bike partly because I thought is was high tech and a forerunner to future technology for all bikes.

Now I find myself regretting getting the DCT because of the potential for failure and a failure that I have absolutely no ability to fix on the road. I have read of other DTC malfunctions that occurred at speed. I don't remember the details exactly but they were listed on the NC700 site a few years ago. I also have come to appreciate the built in safety that a hand clutch gives the rider as a second means to stop or slow forward motion in unexpected situations.

Merlin .."..When I go on over night trips, I always start thinking about this issue and what steps I will take if far from home when, and if, it happens to me. I bought the bike partly because I thought is was high tech and a forerunner to future technology for all bikes.

Now I find myself regretting getting the DCT because of the potential for failure and a failure that I have absolutely no ability to fix on the road. I have read of other DTC malfunctions that occurred at speed. I don't remember the details exactly but they were listed on the NC700...."

When it happened to me I was in Mass, coming from NY then CT, about 150 miles from home. That is why when it happened I had to decide to shut the bike down said FUCK IT and did. I had no idea if it would re-start or if I could fix it. But after shutting the bike down, it re-set itself and all was good. I am not worrying about it happening again, Yes I know if it did happen once it may happen again but have never heard of it doing it a 2nd time. I do not regret getting the DCT, in fact I would only get other bike if it had the DCT.

The DCT is not new only on motorcycles it has been in cars for years. I think it all comes down to the kick stand having something to due with it. In my case I did hit a bump just before stooping for gas, like coming into the gas station, maybe my kick stand jumped out of full up and that started to turn the bike off and when I turned the key it was already off, I do not know I had the radio on and was not looking what I was doing. So if everyone just shuts down their bike the right way maybe it will be fine, I for one am not going to get all PTS over it.

I did hear about people stopped and their bike took off when they took the brake off, but it was that their idle was set too high, and once it was adjusted they where fine.
I have never heard of anything at speed happening that was not from the rider doing something wrong, which can happen on any bike DCT or not.

".............. also have come to appreciate the built in safety that a hand clutch gives the rider as a second means to stop or slow forward motion in unexpected situations..." Yes but the CTX has a cable clutch, and I can tell you stories of back in the day of cables sticking and braking at speed...

Everyone, lets all just ride and enjoy what we have, do not worry about what may happen, and if this "happens" report it to Honda and let them worry about it. If you look for something to worry about you will find it, like flat tires, running out of gas, bad roads, rain, getting lost, etc... Hey it is all part of riding and that is 1/2 the fun...

As per having the manual clutch as a fail safe device, I was referring to a stupid maneuver I made the other day. I approached red light, applied the foot brake for a low speed stop, looked left to determine if I could make a "turn on red" safely, put my left foot down, took my foot off the brake, and shot forward because I didn't have the throttle fully disengaged. If I had had a manual clutch, I would have had it disengaged. As I said, it was my inattention that caused the problem, but added failsafe systems are always a good thing.

As per the NC700 DCT issues I mentioned, I didn't really try to find the threads I mentioned, but this one immediately came up. The issue here was that the bike jumped to neutral at speed on a turnabout. The initial cause was mechanical, not electrical. Read the complete thread.
https://www.nc700-forum.com/forum/nc750-technical/12172-2015-8k-nc750-dct-gearbox-failure.html

Merlin III said:

Now I find myself regretting getting the DCT because of the potential for failure and a failure that I have absolutely no ability to fix on the road.

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The mechanical parts of the DCT aren't greatly different from the manual shift bike, there's just a few more of them. Mechanically, I'd expect the DCT and manual transmissions to have pretty much the same reliability.

A problem with modern vehicles (cars too) is probably going to happen with the electronics. I suspect you won't be able to fix an EFI failure at the side of the road, I sure wouldn't know how to perform surgery on a failed ECU.

Anything can fail and if Mr. Murphy is watching, it will of course happen at the worst possible time.

Modern vehicles are, on average, probably hugely more reliable than those of 40 years ago. I can remember when replacing a starter motor, water pump or alternator was something that might happen every 25-30K miles, and of course changing out the points/condensor/distributor cap/spark plugs was considered routine maintenance and done with some frequency. The mechanical parts are made to higher standards now but there's more complexity. You can't chase all the bugs out of a complex system.

I find the reports of 100K miles with no more than routine maintenance (oil/air filters, tires, chains/sprockets) on the Hondas to be very encouraging. But nothing is perfect.

Merlin III said:

I agree. Someone, somewhere, probably on the FB page, wrote that they have PTS over this issue, LOL. When I go on over night trips, I always start thinking about this issue and what steps I will take if far from home when, and if, it happens to me. I bought the bike partly because I thought is was high tech and a forerunner to future technology for all bikes.

Now I find myself regretting getting the DCT because of the potential for failure and a failure that I have absolutely no ability to fix on the road. I have read of other DTC malfunctions that occurred at speed. I don't remember the details exactly but they were listed on the NC700 site a few years ago. I also have come to appreciate the built in safety that a hand clutch gives the rider as a second means to stop or slow forward motion in unexpected situations.

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Merlin... please. Your worrying is about things may never happen because a 2 clutch transmission may or may not break down. The odds of that happening are about the same odds as you finding me in Time Square on New Years night peeing on a Harley Davidson.

I won't go into a lot but I owned an '03 Goldwing. All bikes built from '01 to around '05 (EVERY GW MADE) had a cooling system that caused overheating onto the rear wheel... or you hope your frame don't crack like a lot of other others because Honda did not weld right. To cap... several thousand motorcycles had 2 very dangerous problem that could kill the riders. These 2 problems where so bad they were in the NTSB because of their possible deaths that could occur. Both recalls got fixed on every single bike all paid by Honda.

Comparing the CTX/DCT thing with the kick stand... if I where Honda I wouldn't recall it either... and I don't work for Honda. Yes it's a glitch that should not have been but, nobody died or was in an accident? If customer can fix the problem by just turning the key on and off. If you use the method of the owners manual read how NOT to get the problem... why would I even think of recalling?

Merlin III said:

As per having the manual clutch as a fail safe device, I was referring to a stupid maneuver I made the other day. I approached red light, applied the foot brake for a low speed stop, looked left to determine if I could make a "turn on red" safely, put my left foot down, took my foot off the brake, and shot forward because I didn't have the throttle fully disengaged. If I had had a manual clutch, I would have had it disengaged. As I said, it was my inattention that caused the problem, but added failsafe systems are always a good thing.

As per the NC700 DCT issues I mentioned, I didn't really try to find the threads I mentioned, but this one immediately came up. The issue here was that the bike jumped to neutral at speed on a turnabout. The initial cause was mechanical, not electrical. Read the complete thread.
https://www.nc700-forum.com/forum/nc750-technical/12172-2015-8k-nc750-dct-gearbox-failure.html

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Interesting you find the manual clutch as a fail safe device. There's probably lot of other people who could give you the reasons why the DCT is a safer transmission... the whole thing is really subjective. If you want to put the DCT in neutral push the N button when you come to a light... you don't need the handle.

"The odds of that happening are about the same odds as you finding me (Randy) in Time Square on New Years night peeing on a Harley Davidson. "

Randy, we both know that we would Pee are pants just from the vibes riding the HD to Times Square, and when we got there the 1st thing we would have to do is Pee! Now at that point being in Times Square and all, I would more then likely Pee next to the Harley not on it. So now I am not sure on the Odds of this happening? It maybe a sure thing? LOL.

Just my 2 cents, I assume Randy has the same, I got to pee because I just hit a bump thing going on that I do....LMAO, almost pee'd myself...

Merlin III said:

As per having the manual clutch as a fail safe device, I was referring to a stupid maneuver I made the other day. I approached red light, applied the foot brake for a low speed stop, looked left to determine if I could make a "turn on red" safely, put my left foot down, took my foot off the brake, and shot forward because I didn't have the throttle fully disengaged. If I had had a manual clutch, I would have had it disengaged. As I said, it was my inattention that caused the problem, but added failsafe systems are always a good thing.

As per the NC700 DCT issues I mentioned, I didn't really try to find the threads I mentioned, but this one immediately came up. The issue here was that the bike jumped to neutral at speed on a turnabout. The initial cause was mechanical, not electrical. Read the complete thread.
https://www.nc700-forum.com/forum/nc750-technical/12172-2015-8k-nc750-dct-gearbox-failure.html

Click to expand...

In that tread it goes on from 10/16 to 3/17 and the OP has no idea what he is talking about. The OP said what the dealership told him and in the end the parts are and still being used in both DCT and manual trans clutches. The OP said that the DCT will brake faster because of the pressure being put on the part. That is not true, pressure is put on the parts is the same has the manual clutch just that the DCT does it a few more times. That the rider of a manual or a DCT in manual will hold a gear
longer will not make the part last longer, the pressure on the part is always there. The clutch takes pressure off the part so the bike can go to the next gear. I also find it odd that the time of the posting the OP said this is something that happens a lot, has told to him by his dealer. But no cases of this happening are on the internet forums but his. And the fact that (his) one dealership has a few cases of this happening where there is a back log, people waiting for parts. All this just at his dealership?

I believe a DCT tranny takes less stress then a manual because the gears are all moved when they are not the driving gear. Just compare to the sound between shifting gears in a manual and with a DCT. The DCT shifts so easy you can hardly hear them. What comes to mind is some of the bikes I've had when you shifted from neutral to 1st. you hope you haven't dropped gears all over the place. The DCT tranny should not have any more troubles because of design than a manual one. Of course this is my opinion, I have no certified comparison testing.

DCT is the choice if high performance cars (street and racing). Bad Things Happen when clutches/transmissions fail at high speeds - where high performance engines operate. This is really nothing to worry about. DCT engages the clutch when there is sufficient drag/lug on the engine.

And if you're concerned about DCT and plowing through intersections because you forgot to let off the throttle? You're not braking hard enough. I know for a fact (it was one of the first things I did) that pulling the front brake hard WILL overcome the engine, and thus keep the DCT clutch engaged - even with full throttle engaged. It's why you can't do a burn-out with the DCT. If you are scared of the intersection - use your brake properly (engage it), use your throttle properly (let off), or get a car.

Yeah, tough words... I know, I know. But I get real tired of people living in fear of "what if/what about...". You RIDE A MOTORCYCLE. You are ALREADY participating in an activity that is 10X+ more dangerous than riding in a car. Living in fear of "what ifs" will get you nowhere fast...